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Current Replies for Re: Unprofessional Goldendoodle breeder on Vancouver Island, BC
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kllyjansen
4/22/2010 2:05:05 PM
Posts: 253
I think a point that is often lost in these 'designer dog' tutorials is that just going to a 'purebred' dog breeder doesn't cut it... there are just as many, if not more, BAD purebred dog breeders. Backyard breeders, uneducated breeders, pups for bucks breeders. The original posters research is going to have to go further than just finding a purebred breeder... he needs to find a QUALITY breeder.

I don't know how many people I have met who say I have spent $$$$$ on a purebred, akc registered dog that has x amount of health problems and a terrible temperament. That's because there are bad purebred dog breeders too!

Do your homework and you will find a QUALITY dog.
mnesbitt
4/23/2010 12:01:06 AM
Posts: 9
OK, there is too much to go over here since my last post. Muddyfeet, I think I'd find more logic in a mound of dirt than in your post. So I will focus on one point: Genetic predisposition of purebreeds to suffer phenotypes of recessive diseases. After this, I am done with the rhetoric put on this post.
Picture this: an ancient tribe of humans capture 5 to 6 wolves that all look the same, appear healthy, and are not overly aggressive. These wolves are related, and while they all may be healthy, there are some flaws in their genome. Wolf A has a rare copy of a defective gene allele, but because his second copy is fully functioning, the tribe will never know of this flaw. The tribe breeds these 5 wolves and looks to keep the good habits of the original 5 by only breeding the offspring with each other, not other wolves that are aggressive or have another coat colour. The defective allele gets passed to multiple F1 progeny of these wolves, and as the progeny inbreed, this once rare allele becomes set in what is to become a purebred line of dog, with the disease phenotype being expressed everytime a pup is unlucky enough to have received two recessive alleles.
Now lets say a dog from this breed that is now known for having a disease associated with the gene allele looks to breed with a dog that comes from a completely different background. This dog of a different background has its own genetic flaws, but does not have the same problems that the dog from the first breed is known for. The mutt progeny of this pairing will be much less likely to produce a homozygous combination of diseased gene alleles, and therefore the mutt is genetically predisposed to fewer diseases.

This scenario isn't just a hypothetical one. In humans, the rate of Cystic Fibrosis among white people is much more high than it is in other races. You can loosely think of people form different races as you would dogs form different breeds here. At one point, there was a colony of white people that died out, and the only people left to start a new colony had the diseased gene allele for Cystic Fibrosis. It has been passed down ever since from peoples of European descent because most people that carry the disease gene appear healthy due to having one good copy of the gene to make up for the diseased allele. It is only when two carriers get together and have a child that unfortunately gets both diseased alleles that the parents realize that they are carriers, and are hence more closely related to each other than might otherwise be the case for another couple. This is because they were related to the same person who had the bad gene and started the new colony.
Finally, if you are thinking of posting some nonsense about how this does not apply to purebred dogs, take a look at the following article:

Patterson, D. Companion animal medicine in the age of
medical genetics. Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine 14, 1–9 (2000).

Patterson is obviously on the side of purebred breeders, but even he highlights the genetic problems of purebred dogs.

OK, now I have given YOU proof that purebred dogs have genetic hurdles to face that are not as prevalent in mixed breeds (or mutts as many of you like to refer to them as). I am not the 'foolish' one here, I am the one that has a basic understanding of the genetic consequences of the founder effect. Having said all of this, let me state again that I have nothing against purebred dog breeders or what they try to accomplish. Keeping breed stocks alive is important work. I do have a problem when someone tells me that any purebred dog is going to have fewer genetic issues than some 'mutt' raised by people that care about money more than animal life. Go ahead and try to tell me that a purebred English Bulldog has fewer health issues than a mutt Golden Doodle. And go play shrink with someone else; there are people out there that like the look of a mix between a Golden Retriever and a Poodle along with the fact that they don't shed. It's offensive to be typecast as someone who is simply excited over silly titles like 'designer dog' or '-oodle'.

Maybe this post qualifies as overly argumentative and I will be banned, but that is fine with me as long as I have addressed one serious misconception that is being thrown around here.
mnesbitt
4/23/2010 12:37:51 AM
Posts: 9
A clarification:

While purebred breeders do their best to select against diseased alleles, there is no way that this can be done at a level to address all of the issues that arise from inbreeding, just as you would not expect humans to 'breed out' Cystic Fibrosis. The only way to do all of this would be to 1) map every disease to the responsible gene(s), 2) sequence and screen the genomes of your mating pair for the defects, and then 3) assess whether or not breeding the planned parents is a good idea. Most matings would continue to propagate health problems.
kllyjansen
4/23/2010 11:39:13 AM
Posts: 253
Mnesbitt,

What everyone is trying, perhaps unsuccessfully to say, is that the stock used to produce a goldendoodle is subpar from the beginning. The purebred "golden" and the purebred "Poodle" that are used to form the litter are likely the products of a backyard breeding because no 'reputable' breeder would allow their stock to be used in a breeding like that. Therefore, you are paying an outrageous price for something that is neither genetic tested (OFA, CERF, etc), nor something that has a carefully documented genetic history, and also (and this is my biggest problem)has false claims.

I would like to go into the 'false claims' part since you mentioned something that really bothers me about advertisement: There is no way to be sure a goldendoodle will not shed. None. They are half golden, half Poodle. They receive the excessive shedding gene from one parent and the 'hair' gene from another. There is no 'best of both worlds' guarantee from this breeding. In fact, I believe that receiving just the 'hair' gene from Poodles is recessive. Genetically that means maybe 1/4 of the litter will adopt the 'nonshed' genes of the Poodle. Maybe.

The history of the Goldendoodle is as following: It was originally developed (in Australia I believe) as a possible solution for people with special needs who, while needing a therapy dog, suffered from allergies. Guess what? This experiment failed miserably and the official development was cancelled in favor of just using the Poodles because barely 1/4 of the pups produced were non-shedding. Unfortunately, people caught wiff of the potential 'fad' for a 'designer dog' and took over where the therapy dogs quit. They still advertise these dogs as nonshedding even though it is NOT true. In fact, that is a huge reason why SO MANY wind up in the shelter. Those that suffer from allergies buy them and then end up suffering anyway.

It is my opinion that there is an overpopulation of dogs without homes in the shelter. It is my opinion that NO ONE should be breeding unless the dog has proved himself worthy through rigorous genetic testing and competing against other dogs. This stands for mixed breed as well as purebred dogs. There is no NEED for more dogs in this world.

My problem isn't with mutts. I love mutts! My problem is the purposeful breeding of them, charging LARGE sums of money, and the lack of support to the pupppies they produce throughout the lifetime of EVERY puppy produced.

To put things in perspective: I have a dog whose full brother was the #1 dog of his breed in 2009 and #3 in his 'group' nationally, his younger brother is curently #2 in breed for the start of 2010, several Awards of Merits from parents and siblings at Westminster, my dogs parents were both OFA excellent, have been genetically tested for all things relevant in the breed and found to be clear. He himself has been tested and found to be clear (probably because of his genetics, right) I show my dog (he is my first show dog). I have a lifetime of support from his breeder (they will help me or take him back at anytime). I paid $600 for this dog. I paid less for a dog who has every qualification and clearance possible than you are willing to pay for a dog with a questionable history, no genetic clearances, and a breeder who is just out to turn a buck.

THAT is my problem with "Oodle" breeders. They are doing none of the work of a truly good breeder and are charging outrageous prices for a dog that should be no more than the money it cost to take the mother to the vet, get initial vaccinations and wormings, and eat for 8 weeks.

There ARE problem breeds and genetic problems in each different breed. But if you think that mutts don't inherit those same problems, you are wrong. I know more goldendoodles with hip dysplasia before the age of 4 because BOTH GOLDENS AND PoodleS are prone to hip dysplasia and BOTH PARENTS pass on that gene (also they weren't OFA tested in the first place).

Mutts/Mixed breeds are not "Hybrids" that receive the best of both worlds and that is a huge misconception. They are simply a mixed breed that are at risk for receiving as many good traits as bad.

If you want a mixed breed dog, please just don't support the industry by spending so much money on it. That is MY problem with all of this. It isn't right to reward someone for not doing all the right things.

Kelly

kllyjansen
4/23/2010 11:55:02 AM
Posts: 253
I would also like to say that I have experience with this 'breed'. I know a 'breeder' of the them and I know for a fact the stock used is not quality. I have worked in a shelter with many surrenders of the 'oodle variety' because of the many health problems and shedding. But more importantly, my own family was affected.

My grandparents paid $1800 for a goldendoodle from a woman who claimed to show the poodles and goldens used to produce this litter (which she didn't). The 'health certificates' produced were copies of the dogs' vaccinations records and a statement from the vet saying the dogs were in good health (vitals, etc) for breeding. My grandparents wanted a goldendoodle because they wanted a nonshedding, calm dog with the 'best of both worlds' from the golden and poodle. My grandparents love Daisy. However:

Daisy was a hellion puppy having received the excessive energy of both the poodle and the golden. I mean, I've been around a lot of excessive energy breed dogs (labs, setters, shepherds) but Daisy was something else entirely. After she aged a bit, she did mature and calm down. But mostly that was because developed hip dysplasia by the time she was three and it started to hurt if she was too active. She also has had two tumors removed this year at the age of four and her entropian eye lids surgically fixed. And by the way, boy does she shed! My grandfather who suffers from allergies cares too much about the dog to get rid of her thank god, but he suffers daily because of this. To date they are very regular about Daisy's vet appointments as it is not sure as to whether or not the tumors are telltale signs of something else.

$1800 for that.
AnkhuIGs
4/23/2010 12:10:00 PM
Posts: 1904
Exactly...a mixed breed mutt is NOT a hybrid. A hybrid is a crossing of two different species, such as Lion/Tiger (Liger), Horse/Donkey (Mule). Canines...are canines. You can, in theory breed a Great Dane to a Chihuahua, but it does not make a hybrid, or a healthier dog, all it makes is a mixed breed mutt.

Wish i had his crystal ball...that seems to give him all the answers of dog breeding and genetics...even tho he obviously has never worked with or learned anything about what a responsible healthy breeding program is! :/



Serena Galloway
IGCA rescue Colorado

No Part of this msg may be forwarded without the author's permission
MaryK
4/24/2010 1:33:25 PM
Posts: 137
I take a lot of obedience classes. I enjoy doing obedience, and I have several dogs and they all usually earn their CDs eventually. In attending various obedience classes in various locations and being a club member that puts on obedience classes, I do see a lot of these Golden Retriever / Poodle mixes and Labrador Retriever / Poodle mixes.

My overwhelming impression so far is that they are nutbars. Obviously, I realize that their owners have a lot to do with their problems, too, but the dogs have not been particularly bright, they are not particularly biddable or eager to please. They really do not seem to be the best of both breeds in either case when it comes to intelligence and learning. The ones I've seen have been stubborn and hard headed. And after watching their owners struggle with them on certain exercises, there is definitely fur on the ground when we get back to heeling, so the non-shedding story is just that - a story.

muddyfeet
4/27/2010 3:36:06 AM
Posts: 137
Hey,, if you find no logic in my suggestion that you find a breeder who does Propper health testing and pedigree reaserch on each breeding..That is your choice.. a suggestion that may want to consider finding a breeder who does not gets defensive or make excuses as to why they do not have it before you purchase a dog..

There are plenty of breeders out there willing and happy too do this for you.. no attiude, no lost paperwork.. no exuces..

.. again your choice.. sorry you do not see the logic, or even perhaps a red flag.. that you need to find someone who can work with you.. and perhaps consider if you had such a issue with something pretty basic.. that perhaps it is best you did get your deposit back? and not be so trusting next time? just a thought..
pineledge6
4/28/2010 7:40:05 PM
Posts: 22
Sorry, just read this and have to comment on the "mixed breeds are healthier than purebreds" foolishness. I have had (and currently have) many different breeds of purebreds over the years. Several years ago I rescued my first mutt, another came into my life last fall. Both are mixed with completely different breeds and both have cost me more in vet bills so far than any of my purebreds COMBINED (and some of my purebreds are those highly "unhealthy" breeds). Between the health and temperament issues it has taken a HUGE toll on my bank account. I love them dearly and wouldn't exchange them for the world but I can't help but get infuriated when I hear such stupid comments about mutts being healthier. I have even asked around to see what the consensus was with other mutt owners. My two are not an exception. People have to learn to think for themselves and not fall for everything they hear. They try to sound intelligent quoting this trash yet they have no experience with it. And these "designer" dog breeders use that "line" as a selling point. So do groups like the HSUS who are just trying to end all pet ownership and are starting by targeting breeders.

And I have a hard time feeling pity for those people that want anything to do with "breeders" that are just out for money. Consider yourself lucky for getting out of that arrangement and go to a local shelter.
mnesbitt
5/2/2010 1:43:46 AM
Posts: 9
Wow,

I am so glad that replies got less aggressive after some actual documentation was offered to support the idea that all variables being equal, a mixed dog is genetically superior to a purebred. As for the last fellow that brings up his/her point that his/her purebreds have not cost him/her as much as his/her mutt, your own reality doesn't dictate actual biology.

All arguments made after my last post are based on hyptheticals. 'Mixed breeders use dogs of poor stock, so mutts have worse health'. That argument typecasts all mixed breeders and is unfair; the research you ask me to do would do you some good and you would find it if you looked for it. Your own personal stories do not speak for the entire Golden Doodle Breeding community.
KllyJansen, I never asked for any opinion on what I should be spending on a dog, or whether a mutt woud or would not shed. You just decided your opinion was needed on this thread. Well I started this thread, and I can guarantee you that I do not need your opinion. In fact, to gather opinions was never the point of this thread, it was to talk about poor business etiquette. Go spew ‘your opinions’ to people that ask for them.

Ankuhl G's, assuming there is no such things as a 'Doodle' is turning a blind eye to something you do not want to exist. These dogs are out there, and if you have a problem with too many dogs in shelters, why not start another thread rather than criticize someone for venting about running into a dog sales lady whom has an unprofessional manner?

Muddyfeet: You are right, I DO WANT TO FIND A BREEDER THAT IS NOT A SENSITIVE NUTCASE. Take a look at the original post and derive from it that I am upset that I got entangled in business with one. My original intent was to let others know about it. According to Ankuhl G’s though, nobody want’s to hear a complaint unless it is about a purebred dog on this forum. I respect that and apologize if I have posted on the wrong forum. I just do not think I deserve to receive a ‘shame on you’ comment. I know I have done my research and I also know that you have no right to judge me from your desktop computer.

For everyone else that breeds purebreed dogs and is angry with me: I have no qualms with you or what you do. Just know that it is a bona fide fact that a purebred dog has a higher risk of running into congential defects than a mixed dog (assuming all other variables are equal). KllyJansen’s assurance that Golden Doodles also suffer from hip dysplasia misses the point: Golden Doodles have a lower probability of running into severe hip dysplasia issues than do purebred Poodles. As long as you account for genetic deficiencies by the parents (which a good Golden Doodle breeder will do), a mutt is healthier than a purebred on average.

By the way, all of my critics on this point have failed to actually read the reference I cited and speak to it. Maybe nobody here is willing to look outside of what they have been taught by another purebred breeder that also looks down on mutts.

A few of you got way too offensive and just went ballistic in earlier posts. I am glad that I am still allowed to speak here and defend my motives/decisions. I would like to thank the moderator for that, whether it is Ankuhl G or someone else.
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